FFIV: A ramble on Rosa
Feb. 21st, 2011 08:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
seventheSo I've been working on something in the background – although it has stalled significantly since this class took over my life, writing, I miss you – but part of that stalling has been idea-wise, and as such I think it's time to open up the floor, since I haven't had a good old school fandom discussion here in a while. I want to talk about Final Fantasy IV, and specifically Rosa.
This will be more relevant if you've read Momentum (Edge, Kain, Rydia) (Edge/Rydia, Edge/Kain, Kain/Rydia, Edge/Kain/Rydia yes it is one of those) (R; 32,800 words) and Content With This Winter (Cecil, Rosa, Kain) (Cecil/Rosa, Cecil/Kain) (NC-17; 5,373 words), but it isn't necessarily necessary to do so. The stories are a very loose series and the third piece (Rosa-centric) will fill it in as a very loose trilogy. This universe could be summed up as "Sex heals everything" or "Kain bones everybody" or "Why Sev doesn't do love triangles (Because She Likes Poly/Open Relationships Okay And Doesn't Believe In Jealousy)" or, again, "Kain does FFIV." This is a joke. It's actually a serious series.
Kain's the unofficial driver of all three pieces, even though Edge narrates the first and Cecil the second: they're about Kain healing and learning and forgiving and finding things. In the first, Kain works out his issues with Rydia, and Mist, and his actions there, as well as faces the truth about his betrayal, via Edge. In the second, Kain faces Cecil's forgiveness and acceptance and his own imperfection, and they take a step or two towards healing their relationship on a couple levels.
Rosa is… she ends up being a presence in my FFIV writing, usually. It's nearly impossible to write Cecil and Kain without dealing with Rosa. She's very central to both of their lives – maybe in different ways, and maybe Cecil's is a little more silly lovestruck and Kain's is a little more stalker creepershark, but I'm not sure you can fully consider the two men without at least acknowledging Rosa, whatever role she ends up playing. And I also find that a lot of the time when I write Rydia, I end up pulling Rosa a little bit to use as a foil, especially looking at the black/white sister/sister mother/daughter complicated relationship they might have. So Rosa ends up appearing in a lot of my fic – but she's difficult to write herself.
Rosa is a character who fits oddly into fandom because so much of her presence in FFIV is static. By the time we meet Rosa, she is everything she will be: her character has already undergone its development and growth. She has chosen to be a White Mage; she loves Cecil; she's training in White Magic so that she can fight with and protect Cecil. This all happened before the game started, and we don't ever get to see it; we just see Rosa the finished product. Her characterization never goes anywhere because she's already where they wanted her to be.
And this is in a game in which two of the characters (Cecil and Rydia) undergo such drastic changes that they get new sprites entirely. Kain's entire arc is in motion; he's never static. Other characters leave the party or die (or, you know, "die"). For comparison's sake, Edge is also a static character (and I think it's the reason Rosa and Edge get less attention in fandom as a whole) – but Edge is presented as imperfect, incomplete, learning, maturing: there's a lot a fanfiction author can do with Edge, for better or worse; there's a lot of character development which could come into play. Rosa, on the other hand, is presented as complete, 'perfect', matured.
And it's hard to get at the motivations of a character like Rosa without – without imposing the author's mindset or desires on her. She was written in an old game, before the lady characters got to be badass and swordwielding, and a lot of her story/angle/person is defined through other characters (Cecil, Kain) or other events (being kidnapped; following Cecil) rather than her own agency. She gets agency and has her moments, don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of time writers can turn Rosa into what they want. They want a badass lady fighter? Rosa becomes an archer warrior princess. They want a sweet perfect wife for Cecil? Rosa becomes domestic. They want a snarky sassy healer-type? Or a mystical oracle sorceress? It's too easy, because Rosa skirts the edges of a lot of these things without… truly being any of them.
Again, she's a static character. And that makes her great in FFIV when so many other things are changing but it's hard for a writer.
The next story in the series is called All The Ghosts, and it's Rosa-centric. I'm coming at it from an angle of examining the Cecil/Rosa/Baron OT3 that I see in my head: how they became King and Queen, why the country was okay with that, and a little bit about the issue of divine right and/or royal lineage – which of course has broken off with Cecil, and yet he's the "chosen King". The story's also muddled with a lot of mythology about Odin, and the backstory of Baron and Mist, and the Dragoons / Summoners / Nobles / Eidolons (which were once their own OTwhatever).
But there are other parts too. Rosa's a White Mage and for her I'd imagine practicing her magic is as important a part of her as her love for Cecil. And personally, I think the best and healthiest kind of love is the kind that does have room in it – whether it's space for two individuals with fulfilling lives, space for other loves figuratively (Baron, White Magic, the Lunarian family) and literally (Kain), or just space for two people to be two rather than one monolith. Because it's too easy to write Cecil and Rosa as CecilandRosa, or just as King and Queen, forgetting that they might have had things they wanted to do with their lives other than rule.
Kain's again the driving force in All The Ghosts, but from Rosa's point of view: there are flashbacks that tell the story of the three of them when they were young, and how their parents (or lack thereof) and heritage meant their destinies were intertwined even when they were kids. How Odin ensnared them in his net for Baron before they even knew what was going on, and what that means for the divine 'right' to rule; why Kain went to Mount Ordeals for 'forgiveness' when his entire being was focused on Baron's Dragoon tradition.
And it also hits on Cecil and Kain's relationship, which in this series is pretty explicit Cecil/Kain. And why Rosa doesn't mind, because she knows there's room in Cecil's heart to love more than just her, and she has White Magic's mysteries and they both are married to Baron now, wed to Odin, and Cecil should have something that is just his own.
I'm really just having trouble getting a handle on where Rosa wants to go, post-game. Where Rosa wants to go – not where Queen Rosa wants to go, not where Cecil's Rosa wants to go. Where she wants to go herself.
This will be more relevant if you've read Momentum (Edge, Kain, Rydia) (Edge/Rydia, Edge/Kain, Kain/Rydia, Edge/Kain/Rydia yes it is one of those) (R; 32,800 words) and Content With This Winter (Cecil, Rosa, Kain) (Cecil/Rosa, Cecil/Kain) (NC-17; 5,373 words), but it isn't necessarily necessary to do so. The stories are a very loose series and the third piece (Rosa-centric) will fill it in as a very loose trilogy. This universe could be summed up as "Sex heals everything" or "Kain bones everybody" or "Why Sev doesn't do love triangles (Because She Likes Poly/Open Relationships Okay And Doesn't Believe In Jealousy)" or, again, "Kain does FFIV." This is a joke. It's actually a serious series.
Kain's the unofficial driver of all three pieces, even though Edge narrates the first and Cecil the second: they're about Kain healing and learning and forgiving and finding things. In the first, Kain works out his issues with Rydia, and Mist, and his actions there, as well as faces the truth about his betrayal, via Edge. In the second, Kain faces Cecil's forgiveness and acceptance and his own imperfection, and they take a step or two towards healing their relationship on a couple levels.
Rosa is… she ends up being a presence in my FFIV writing, usually. It's nearly impossible to write Cecil and Kain without dealing with Rosa. She's very central to both of their lives – maybe in different ways, and maybe Cecil's is a little more silly lovestruck and Kain's is a little more stalker creepershark, but I'm not sure you can fully consider the two men without at least acknowledging Rosa, whatever role she ends up playing. And I also find that a lot of the time when I write Rydia, I end up pulling Rosa a little bit to use as a foil, especially looking at the black/white sister/sister mother/daughter complicated relationship they might have. So Rosa ends up appearing in a lot of my fic – but she's difficult to write herself.
Rosa is a character who fits oddly into fandom because so much of her presence in FFIV is static. By the time we meet Rosa, she is everything she will be: her character has already undergone its development and growth. She has chosen to be a White Mage; she loves Cecil; she's training in White Magic so that she can fight with and protect Cecil. This all happened before the game started, and we don't ever get to see it; we just see Rosa the finished product. Her characterization never goes anywhere because she's already where they wanted her to be.
And this is in a game in which two of the characters (Cecil and Rydia) undergo such drastic changes that they get new sprites entirely. Kain's entire arc is in motion; he's never static. Other characters leave the party or die (or, you know, "die"). For comparison's sake, Edge is also a static character (and I think it's the reason Rosa and Edge get less attention in fandom as a whole) – but Edge is presented as imperfect, incomplete, learning, maturing: there's a lot a fanfiction author can do with Edge, for better or worse; there's a lot of character development which could come into play. Rosa, on the other hand, is presented as complete, 'perfect', matured.
And it's hard to get at the motivations of a character like Rosa without – without imposing the author's mindset or desires on her. She was written in an old game, before the lady characters got to be badass and swordwielding, and a lot of her story/angle/person is defined through other characters (Cecil, Kain) or other events (being kidnapped; following Cecil) rather than her own agency. She gets agency and has her moments, don't get me wrong. But I think a lot of time writers can turn Rosa into what they want. They want a badass lady fighter? Rosa becomes an archer warrior princess. They want a sweet perfect wife for Cecil? Rosa becomes domestic. They want a snarky sassy healer-type? Or a mystical oracle sorceress? It's too easy, because Rosa skirts the edges of a lot of these things without… truly being any of them.
Again, she's a static character. And that makes her great in FFIV when so many other things are changing but it's hard for a writer.
The next story in the series is called All The Ghosts, and it's Rosa-centric. I'm coming at it from an angle of examining the Cecil/Rosa/Baron OT3 that I see in my head: how they became King and Queen, why the country was okay with that, and a little bit about the issue of divine right and/or royal lineage – which of course has broken off with Cecil, and yet he's the "chosen King". The story's also muddled with a lot of mythology about Odin, and the backstory of Baron and Mist, and the Dragoons / Summoners / Nobles / Eidolons (which were once their own OTwhatever).
But there are other parts too. Rosa's a White Mage and for her I'd imagine practicing her magic is as important a part of her as her love for Cecil. And personally, I think the best and healthiest kind of love is the kind that does have room in it – whether it's space for two individuals with fulfilling lives, space for other loves figuratively (Baron, White Magic, the Lunarian family) and literally (Kain), or just space for two people to be two rather than one monolith. Because it's too easy to write Cecil and Rosa as CecilandRosa, or just as King and Queen, forgetting that they might have had things they wanted to do with their lives other than rule.
Kain's again the driving force in All The Ghosts, but from Rosa's point of view: there are flashbacks that tell the story of the three of them when they were young, and how their parents (or lack thereof) and heritage meant their destinies were intertwined even when they were kids. How Odin ensnared them in his net for Baron before they even knew what was going on, and what that means for the divine 'right' to rule; why Kain went to Mount Ordeals for 'forgiveness' when his entire being was focused on Baron's Dragoon tradition.
And it also hits on Cecil and Kain's relationship, which in this series is pretty explicit Cecil/Kain. And why Rosa doesn't mind, because she knows there's room in Cecil's heart to love more than just her, and she has White Magic's mysteries and they both are married to Baron now, wed to Odin, and Cecil should have something that is just his own.
I'm really just having trouble getting a handle on where Rosa wants to go, post-game. Where Rosa wants to go – not where Queen Rosa wants to go, not where Cecil's Rosa wants to go. Where she wants to go herself.
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Date: 2011-02-21 03:21 pm (UTC)And christ Sev, these long stories are killing me. Now that I've played enough of the game to read them I'm seeing OVER 30,000 WORDS and going O.O Which I know is short for you. XD
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Date: 2011-02-21 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 05:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 03:50 pm (UTC)The complexity with White Magic versus the other magic traditions is the very practice of it is so bound up in Love itself, in one or more of its many forms. You become a white mage for the love of some partner in your life, or the love of your kingdom, or your planet, or... well, love itself. Divine, universal, almost bodhisattva. And, at that point, no, you never let go of individualistic you, of where you as the specific person still want to go, the dreams you may have, things you want to do, but they feel so much less important than whatever the grand scheme is. And it's not because you're principled or conditioned this way, not always, but just... it's how you are. If you want to make it terribly simplistic, you are ruled by your very open Heart, and whatever you have in your life, it is always enough. You have contentment and peace.
Only, as we all know, those moments of peace can ever only be moments: they are never true static continuity. It's just that because of what they mean to the archetype of the white mage, they can often feel that way. Those peaks get all the attention, because it's almost the source of their power.
Having said that, I do agree the final push for someone, especially a woman, in Rosa's position is to truly discover what is in her own heart's Heart. Where Rosa the woman wants to go. But as far as getting a handle on it, I think you need a plot device, or some outer stimulus, that makes that important to her. Because left to her own devices, I don't think you'll find it simply because she won't dwell on it: she's content as she is.
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Date: 2011-02-21 05:51 pm (UTC)THIS. This has actually already come up in the piece - Rosa's a White Mage and to her it isn't something you do, or something you practice: it's something you are. And while Cecil understands - as much as a not-Mage can understand; remember Cecil has White Magic too - I think it's Baron that has trouble understanding. Rosa can be a Queen, but she can't be fully a Queen, because her heart has already been given to ... everything. Because she's a White Mage.
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Date: 2011-02-21 06:43 pm (UTC)While this happens to mages, it's not as often, and, in many cases, you simply are what you are, and what you are directs your path. I theorize even if Rosa had never met Cecil, or been born to some place besides Baron, she would still be a white mage. In parallel, it's the same as Aerith being a Cetra and the keeper of Holy, whether she's in the labs or the slums or halfway around the Planet. It's inherent to her nature.
And, yes, Baron would have trouble with this. Even Cecil would probably have trouble, and forget from time to time, because, well, his white magic is tied to his duties, not his duties to his magic. It's so very ironic, too, because you have this friction and almost distrust that develops between white mages and party members, or factions, or any number of associations that the mage originally made the sacrifice to BE a white mage for.
Most of the world is used to this being important, or that. They are used to a heart having priorities. They are not used to EVERYTHING being important. Everything, everyone mattering just as much. But that's kind of the point. Everything matters, because it is all One: Rosa becomes a white mage for her love of Cecil, because she wants to share the love he has for the service of Baron, because Baron the kingdom is the symbol of Baron the people--and, eventually, both of their feelings transcend to a love/belief in a righteous principle, the idea there should be a balance, a rightness to the world.
By the way, that idea of true balance over accumulation of power, even under a noble conceptual principle, is often how white mage archetypes wind up with relationship dynamics to on-the-fence villains. The kind of Fallen Angel types, the divided loyalty types, any that are dynamically turning the tide (like Kain). A white mage has an inherent understanding not of what we think of as situation ethics and necessary evils, but a sympathetic/empathetic understanding of the necessary existences of ghosts in the machine. They accept that scars and amputations, so-called imperfections, might be as much a part of the healing process as restoration.
Trying to make this more than just a self-indulgent ramble, see, yeah, I think what Rosa the Woman wants is going to be forever bound in the path of Rosa the White Mage. Maybe that conflict between the duties of a white mage as seeking balance and healing for the universe by the support of the individual with what Baron would want in a Queen would be the central catalyst?
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Date: 2011-02-21 03:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 05:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 05:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 07:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 10:36 pm (UTC)I also desperately want to do a fic where Rosa was the paladin. One day... oh one day.
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Date: 2011-02-21 03:00 pm (UTC)I would say Rosa is actually pretty badass. I mean, she DOES fight physically very well, she crossed a desert by herself to find Cecil, and she shows no signs of mental trauma to being Golbez's prisoner (or for being betrayed by Kain for that matter).
The thing is, everyone in life has multiple roles to them. You wouldn't say you're only a student, would you? Or that you're only a runner, or only a GODDAMNIT CATS owner? That's true for Rosa too. She's written as so many things because different people see those things in her from different moments in the game. She's a lot more intricate than a lot of people give her credit, because how static she is fools people into thinking whatever first impression they have of her is all there is. This can be somewhat said for the others too; I've seen depictions fans and "fans" of Rydia give her that range from sweet and innocent girl (even as an adult) to wild dominatrix.
I only got to read about half of your post before I had to take off for more work things. I'll continue when I get off my current work duty, but it'll be in a new comment because I can't edit mine.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-21 07:19 pm (UTC)Back to Rosa's multiple roles, I'm sorry if you remember these things yourself and have already considered them, but I want to touch back on them anyway. Through the game, Rosa
1) gives moral support to Cecil that arguably helped him resist the dark blade
2)comforts little Rydia and helps her get over her fear of Fire
3) disobeys her mother and runs off at least crossing a desert to find Cecil
4) serves as healer in Fabul until Cecil needs her at which point
5) she stops Kain from killing Cecil and gets abducted, then later
6) helps in convincing Kain to help them fight the good fight, has a few moments here and there until
7) she stows away on the Lunar Whale, wrapping up in
8) marrying Cecil and becoming queen.
Some of those are the same roles, some of them are different ones, but she's not any one of them only. Sometimes, Rosa is a damsel-in-distress, albeit with good reasons and not as bad as many later characters. However, she's also a committed white mage, as her Lunar Trial showed. That compassionate, loving heart that led her to becoming a white mage is what made her act motherly toward child Rydia; she is then a foster mother. At the same time, part of her IS an archer warrior princess; she braved the wilds by herself that would easily destroy Rydia or Tellah and that even give Cecil some trouble at times by himself. Yes, she's fueled by love, but a woman that isn't at least part "archer warrior princess" wouldn't be so adamant about running into danger for the man she loves in spite of all his requests for her not to do so.
There's also the wise tactician side of her that's very subtle. Rosa's desire to stick by Cecil on the Lunar Whale is likely even stronger than Rydia's desire to join the battle, but Rosa kept her emotions in check, formulated a plan and followed through (note: it's possible Rosa and Rydia decided that together, we don't really know for certain).
And then there's the "I'm an independent woman, hear me pray!" side of her that tends to not get noticed. The Lunar Whale moment is one, but a better indicator is her relationship with Cecil and her love for him as a whole. Rosa wanting to be with Cecil, not Kain, was frowned upon while Cecil was a Dark Knight. Society wanted her to be with Kain due to his nobility, not Cecil due to his unknown parentage. But she didn't cave into social and even family pressure. She loved Cecil, she kept with that. This shows a woman that will follow through on her own thoughts and desires regardless of what anyone else wants her to do with herself. If Cecil was an outcast monster and he only had a hole in the ground for shelter, she'd live in that hole with him with no regrets.
Based on everything there is to the character, I don't think there's a single thing she would have wanted to do differently. I believe she's exactly where she always wanted to be, with all the roles she has. The only possible alternative I can see her as wanting post-game would be maybe disappointment that her and Cecil weren't able to raise Rydia, as I got the impression Rosa really had so much love and compassion for little Rydia that she wanted to make the rest of Rydia's life golden and help her grow into womanhood. Also, I think it IS possible that Rosa might have wanted to be with Kain at one point in her life, I just don't think that was anywhere in her thoughts by the start of FF4.
I know you like the idea of Cecil/Kain/Rosa post-game, and I disagree with that myself, but for fanfic it's okay. :) Especially since when you write fanfic, you write it with build-up and explanation, and it keeps at least some consideration to what the characters are really like in there. That's a lot better than most depictions I see where Rosa has sex with Kain solely so Cecil and Rydia can go at each other without Cecil being a cheater and Rydia being a homewrecker, or Rosa participating WILLINGLY in a massive orgy for the purpose of getting impregnated by hundreds of men at once that aren't Cecil.
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Date: 2012-01-04 02:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-01-04 03:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-05-11 01:16 am (UTC)like a creeperthrough your public-access tags last night after your wonderful comment-battle post showed up on my network, and then I had to go and have ALL THE THOUGHTS about Rosa on my journal, which meant giving you access, because, hey, if I am going to poke my way through your old posts the least I can do is let you return the favor!But anyway, I love all these thoughts and I had some right back!
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Date: 2013-05-11 01:22 am (UTC)THIS SOUNDS OKAY TO ME. WELCOME TO MY RANDOM BULLSHIT JOURNAL <3
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Date: 2013-05-11 02:31 am (UTC)