a very quick signal boost

[seventhe]

I've been meaning to post this for a while, and I wasn't around a computer much this weekend and didn't want to post it from my phone - I wanted to at least think about the words a little bit.

I use AO3; I like AO3, I like it a lot. I have friends who are on the OTW Board, who are involved in Tag Wrangling, who do other things I only vaguely know and understand. So I'm not really involved here - only peripherally.

But... that's kind of the problem (as I say in my comment), because I don't know much about AO3 or the OTW, and they really only appear in my personal fandom circle as "Here's a place you can post that has fixed most structural problems other sites have." They're not present, they're not visible, they're not welcoming. There's no community on AO3, and community is a big part of fandom.

And that sucks.

But it wouldn't be half as bad if I didn't keep hearing faint strains of, but we want you! We want to expand to tiny fandoms, to video games and anime, to non-Western fandoms; we want to involve you. But they don't, and they haven't, and it isn't like Final Fantasy fandom is dead, I compile ff_press once a week, I run ff_exchange; it sure isn't dead and it keeps getting revived every time Squeenix wants another $30 from my wallet.

But they say this, and do nothing; and then other things happen that really make me feel strange and unwelcome.

I know my Circle/FList is full of non-Western media fans: Final Fantasy fans, Chrono Trigger fans, other video game fans; anime fans, Sailor Moon and Cowboy Bebop and I don't even know what else fans; even JPop and KPop and other things that just aren't represented at all on the AO3, that don't see it anywhere in their fandoms, in their daily fannish functioning. We aren't there. A lot of us got mad/hurt/upset at Yuletide this year, too. And we still aren't there. And if you look at their latest poll... we still aren't there.

And so to you guys, I'd like to invite some conversation. You're welcome to do it in this entry if you're more comfortable with me - I'll pass it on to the relevant post. But you're also welcome to do it in a more appropriate place if you can please (a) remember to keep this person's fannish and Board identities separate, as they desire; and (b) are respectful to someone who put a lot of thought, time, and work into compiling a really interesting, informative, helpful, and - you know what - downright painful entry.

I offer up here, for perusal, The OTW Server Poll and Fannish Diversity.

Thoughts welcome, and thank you to the Board member who took the time to put this public, transparent, honest document together.

Comments

Re: Hmm.

[salarta.livejournal.com]

Oh god, I'll admit shamefully that I have at times taken very VERY specific cases of fanfic too seriously but as a whole I consider fanfic to be something lackadaisical. I feel fanfics can get away with more because they're not officially endorsed in any way, and they're usually by random people, not big name story writers and the like. This is also why I refer to the storyline in some games as "bad fanfic quality," when they do things that seem like they should only ever be done in fanfics that have no bearing on the actual canon.

I think fanfics ARE valuable, they allow people to share thoughts and feelings in a fictional manner and see things they'd never see in the canon, but I don't think they need to be put on a pedestal as on par with the original work.

Yet I also recently had a case where someone took fanfic writing so seriously they started insulting me as a person for not writing the kind of content they want to read. They honestly went to ridiculous lengths to look for insults to make toward me for story ideas they simply don't like, which gets wrapped up into what we're talking about here because at one point he (or she) said that when writing fanfics it's my "job" to write content the majority of people want to read.


tl;dr fanfiction is SRS BSNS.

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

There's a whole argument out there - which, in my old fuddy duddy age, I am starting to believe - that fandom actually hurts the creative genre, because it siphons away people who would otherwise be able to really create something new, and sticks them in the rut of recreating something old, and never being able to graduate from it into serious authorship. Conversely, you could say, we're training a great generation of TV series writers, who are basically "fan writers" for series character creators. But by taking fandom philisophically too seriously as a real genre, you're actually shooting new, promising authors - mostly female ones at that - in the foot by stumping their future career possibilities.

I like fandom, because I know, personally, I don't have the time or financial risk assessment to devote myself to a career in creative writing. But it's an easy way out for people who do and are afraid to take that step. Traditionally, men are more willing to risk taking that step than women, so yeah. You might say fandom is a bit anti-feminist in the creative genre; we neuter our own chances with it.

TOO SERIOUS SRSLY HUH?

Re: Hmm.

[salarta.livejournal.com]

I can agree with that argument to an extent, I have an idea I want to launch for a new IP but I keep not really pursuing it. So many barriers to entry for getting something published and published right, it's easier and in some ways more enjoyable to just write fanfics.

But like you said, "fan writers" can be good if they know what they're doing. I suppose it's the lack of them at Square-Enix that leads to me being pissed off at a lot of their products over the past 8 years, because the writers they have tend to go "fuck what everyone loved about this IP" and do whatever. Especially Toriyama. He loves to ruin things he didn't make himself. I've honestly seen terribly written fanfics with more respect to Square-Enix IPs than what he shows, with the crap he pulls it astounds me he still has a job.

For the record, I'm male. :)

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

word on SqEn plots, btw. How can they spend that much money and still be so bad at what they do!

Re: Hmm.

[salarta.livejournal.com]

I think it's mostly that the majority of people running the show at Square-Enix have no interest in or respect for previously established IPs except for money to be made, hence Toriyama's antics. He's not entirely a bad writer, if I believe people on FF13, it's that he intentionally chooses to ruin things when it's an IP that he didn't personally create. Even writing FF13, he made the deliberate decision to make it sci fi and turn the summons into mechs which ruined a major theme of the series for no good reason.

That's my take, though. Supposedly, his writing would be good/decent if it was for original IPs.

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

That other post was me not logging in, BTW.

More seriously, I think the problem with SqEn games at the moment is that they aren't encouraging new talent to push in new directions, but sticking with things they think are "safe" - and therefore boring. And that is driving the new talent out to new companies. I think the biggest tell for this are all the great games that have been made by the talent SqEn has bled - Shadow Hearts and Lost Odyssey come to mind, though I know there are more. Then compare what they're making now - remakes of the early FF games, a Parasite Eve sequel that looks suspiciously like PE1, and their good sellers at the moment are Kingdom Hearts games - which they collaborate with Disney on, so they're not exactly "original" either. They even finally found a good musical replacement for Uematsu - Hamauzu - and come to think of it, he did a good job on Dirge of Cerberus, too - and that guy has already signed off from SqEn after FF13.

They just need to give new guys with radical ideas a chance. And stop bleeding the talent that they do have!

Re: Hmm.

[salarta.livejournal.com]

The "Parasite Eve sequel" you mentioned is actually absolutely nowhere near in the same hemisphere of quality as PE1. 3rd Birthday literally took everything wonderful and amazing about Parasite Eve and Aya Brea and trashed it in the most insulting way imaginable. Toriyama (scriptwriter) first and Tabata (director) second took a strong, mature, smart and appropriately sexy female protagonist and transformed her into a scared, immature, stupid, skanky-dressing (and posing, for propaganda) teenager-wannabe that just takes it when people make crude remarks about and insult her. Toriyama tried to get it excused by making her act stronger over the course of the game and then reveal it wasn't really Aya that whole time, but through advertising, propaganda and the majority of his script, he and Tabata utterly destroyed everything thing Aya Brea and Parasite Eve ever were.

Which is why I decided after 3rd Birthday's Japanese release this past winter that if they don't make a real Parasite Eve sequel next that retcons 3rd Birthday, brings back the REAL Aya and gets a lot more promotion from Square-Enix, I'm never buying anything from them again for the rest of my life. Such is my absolute disgust with the way they operate and what they did to one of the few great female protagonists to ever grace the video game medium, all because of a mix of CEOs desperately hoping lowest common denominator would sell more copies, and the creative team decided to treat the IP like a chance to make their hentai fanfic desires into canon. Also Toriyama needs to stop being such an asshole that he turns established characters into his self-inserts (Brother being a pervy incestuous cousin to Yuna in FFX-2, and Maeda being an all-out perverted creep toward Aya in 3rd Birthday).


So really it's a mix of problems. The higher-ups need to stop pressuring teams to do "what'll sell more copies" according to the marketing team's bull, and the creative teams need to give more of a damn about the IPs they're working with. Because at this point, I'd sooner pay beginning fanfic writers to make these games than the people S-E has working for them.

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

THEY RETCONNED AND TRASHED MAEDA?

THEY WILL FEEL MY WRATH

This also makes me happy to have not bought a copy of 3rd Birthday, though that much was clear for me by looking at the cover art.

But Maeda? Really? I loved him in the first game. He was so socially awkward and nerdy and adorable. And now he's a hentai otaku? ;__;

*pump gun*

Re: Hmm.

[salarta.livejournal.com]

Toriyama makes his version of Maeda pretty much go on and on about her body in this creepy way. One of the most notorious lines from Toriyama's self-insert rewrite of Maeda was a line about how he wants to taste Aya's tears.

I'm not joking.

I'm not sure what to think and expect right now. In a reasonable company that actually cares about its fans and IPs, and wants to maintain a good image, I would expect them to retcon 3rd Birthday and make a real sequel that cleans up the mess made by Toriyama and Tabata. But... this is Square-Enix. They seem to enjoy reinforcing terrible directions that they take their IPs, which makes me expect they're going to try to cement 3rd Birthday as Parasite Eve universe canon and ruin the characters further with another "sequel."

Re: Hmm.

[amberswansong.livejournal.com]

Which carries with it the assumption that something is only legitimate if you're making money at it, an assumption that drives me insane. I've been writing fanfic since 1994, and I've been told that I'm quite good at it. I write very little original fic, not because I'm "afraid" of it, but because that's just not the way my mind works. I can take other people's ideas and run with them, creating a new thing that feels incredibly like the original world, but with my own take on it. You give me a totally blank page and an empty universe, and I've got nothing. I'm good at scenes, snippets, filling in little blank spaces - I'm not any good at plot. Which means I'm an excellent fanfic writer, and I enjoy it, and I resent the idea that if I didn't write fanfic I would create something more "legitimate." (Not to mention all of the people writing paid fanfic these days - not just the spin-off novels for TV shows, but the piles of books riffing on Pride and Prejudice and the Thursday Next books and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and so on. These people are making money, are they "more" legitimate than me, because I don't sell my stuff?) In addition, there are plenty of published writers who got their start cutting their teeth in fanfic - Diane Duane, for example, started out writing the Star Trek fanfic you maligned earlier. Mercedes Lackey and a dozen or more writers of her generation wrote Darkover fanfic. Some people write fic and move on to original universes. Some people just write fanfic. Both are legitimate choices that should be respected.

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

Ah, I love a good 'net debate. Sadly I can't keep up at it because of baby duties, but I will try to make my points brief and interesting.

People like Mercedes Lackney "graduated" from fanfic to become original authors. But not many people make it over that hump, which I think is crippling. Now you could go off on all the crap that you meet in the publishing industry, too, but that is a whole other argument. In a way, self-e-publishing from places like Amazon is helping to combat that, but fanfiction is much more established, and IMO, much harder to break out of once you start, especially because you are burning up your good ideas on ideas you can't sell for a living, discouraging people from trying to make a living on those ideas at all.

I too love creating characters within existing universes because I don't have the time or want to put in the effort to create my own universes. But for the record, the "paid" fanfiction authors - otherwise known as the franchises - generally they tend to turn out horribly, particularly in movies. A whole series of Battletech and DnD novels come to mind right off the start.

I like fandom. I think it deserves a place and it's not going away, and good. But to try and establish it on the same par as original creation - whether you make money with it or not, and believe me, plenty of original authors who are quite good are not making money off of doing what they love - with fan writing just seems like effort which could be better directed elsewhere, like supporting struggling new authors.

Re: Hmm.

[first-seventhe.livejournal.com]

This is turning into a fascinating discussion, everyone, I am sorry I'm working and unable to contribute! XD

I really like the idea of fanwriting as legitimate. For obvious reasons - I spend a lot of time doing it and I get a lot out of it. I mean, a lot of hobbies are like that: I knit, but I don't do it to sell my knitting and make money. You sew, but (as far as I know XDD) it isn't to make a profit (although it is to save money, which is related). People garden for fun, create things for fun, and it can still be valued even if you're not redesigning a public park. Is it the loftiest of goals? Well, no, hahaha. But I can understand where they (the OTW and all) are coming from in terms of that!

I do also think there should be room for fanfiction authors to be able to develop into original work, again for personal reasons, and I think it would be more helpful if fanfiction weren't so looked down on.

I actually don't know much about Star Trek fandom so I do find all the background pretty fascinating there! I understand that it's a large established fandom and it isn't surprising that 3 Star Trek names won the server poll, based on that.

I don't know a lot about the OTW and their degrees, either, to be honest. Like I said -- I don't know a ton about them in general, and I think that's part of their problem; they seem to either think everyone knows who they are and what they do, or maybe not necessarily care about expressing it to new(-to-them) fandoms?

IN OTHER NEWS if you want an AO3 invite I will dig one up for you. I know you're not writing as much but it is a HUGE RELIEF to have somewhere to post that doesn't strip all your freaking formatting into a giant blob of no line breaks and missing quotation marks :D

Re: Hmm.

[rosencrantz.livejournal.com]

You see what happens when I have free time? TROUBLE! And just think, I spawned now, so I'm passing these lessons on being cheeky down to the next generation. Gives you hope for the future, don't it? XD

On account ... as I wrote in my reply to your linked post, not too eager to jump into a hostile environment, even if it is not hostile intentionally. But you know, living in Germany, I had enough of "hostility through omission" rather than "actively hostile" and for me they're nearly the same thing. Or more correctly, to be unwelcoming by accident bugs me more than to be unwelcoming by intent. You can debate with, change opinions on intent. Not knowing that you are being hostile makes it harder to point out that yes, this is a problem, because people don't get it IS a problem in the first place. Hence the problem...

Anyway back on track. Technical competence goes a long way in my book. I could give them a try but don't rush on it, because I barely have time to hit my computer as it is, and when I do, usually I have to work on my paid commissions. Today was like the exception to the rule. So, if you want to get back to me with that in a week, two weeks, a month, there is no fanfire being lit under my butt to transfer my stuff to a higher quality server.

On fandom being taken seriously ... I can see your guys points, no really. I know I sound brutal and uncompromising at times, but I do appreciate the effort and skill it takes to write GOOD fanfiction and that it shoudn't be undervalued as a creative genre. But I suppose I am coming more from the point of view of the artistic community, via the internet. It is already astoundingly hard for artists to make money off of their work ... unless you are already well established, even if you are talented the majority of people think your images should be free for the taking, or that you should give them away at prices that don't allow you to sustain yourself. After all it is "just" art. Now factor into this fanart. I sympathize greatly with the creators in this case, because I know how hard it is to sell art personally. People go off and make fan works of your things, and they can be beautiful and great, but then, some people try to charge money for things YOU created, or give away copies of things you are trying to sell for free... I have even heard "but I put a copyright with your name on it!" to justify this kind of stuff. I think fandom being taken "seriously" makes it that much harder for original artists to earn money with what they do, and thereby cuts down on the number of people who try, or can succeed. We all need to eat. This argument passes over to the music industry quite often too, in the terms of MP3 sharing and stuff.

I do not NOT like fandom. But traditionally, to establish as a real genre means to be able to earn money with it, and that can just get... messy.

Wish I could be more clear here, but it is hard to be articulate on the Wii. :P